Search for Meaning with Rabbi Michael Zedek (2)

In this episode of Search for Meaning, Rabbi Yoshi Zweiback welcomes Rabbi Michael Zedek back to the podcast on the occasion of his second book, People Are Like…: Stories for Young Readers and Readers Who Wish to Stay Young. A beloved teacher, storyteller, and rabbi, Rabbi Zedek joins Rabbi Yoshi for a warm and thoughtful conversation about the wisdom hidden in everyday life—and why some of life’s deepest truths are often best conveyed through simple stories.

Drawing from the book’s memorable parables about porcupines, dogs, redwood trees, monkeys, and more, the two rabbis explore themes of empathy, connection, resilience, kindness, and spiritual growth. Rabbi Zedek reflects on what children can teach adults, how stories shape moral imagination, and why compassion and community remain at the heart of a meaningful life.

The conversation also touches on Rabbi Zedek’s decades of leadership, teaching, interfaith work, and public dialogue, including his many years hosting Religion on the Line. Filled with humor, heart, and gentle wisdom, this episode is both uplifting and deeply grounding.

https://ascendbooks.com/publications/people-are-like/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

There is no place where God is not, and where God is all is well. I don't think that means everything's hunky-dory, but there's no place where the sacred isn't at least accessible if we would connect with each other. I think that's Judaism 101.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Welcome to Search for Meaning. I'm Yoshi Zwyback. It's such a joy and a pleasure to welcome back to the podcast a teacher and a friend, Rabbi Michael Zedek. He just published a new book, and we're going to be talking about that. Michael is a master storyteller, an amazing rabbi of rabbis, and he's been such a generous colleague and has been an important part of my own rabbinic journey. Some of you will remember the conversation I had with Michael now about a year ago when he published his first book, and now he's published his second book so quickly. And it's just going to be beautiful. So we're going to talk about that. But first and foremost, Rabbi Zedek, welcome back to Search for Meaning.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Well, Rabbi Zorbeck, it's one it's first of all, it's great to see your CCU, to be with you and to have this opportunity to talk about uh something that uh I hope will make a difference in some lives, since uh a search for meaning isn't a bad thing to undertake.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Michael, you've spent a lifetime teaching Torah and telling stories to adults. What inspired you at this point in your rabbinant, this point in your life, to write a children's book? And I think it might have something to do with grandchildren, but maybe I'm wrong. That was my thinking.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Uh well, that may be the answer as eloquently as I can put it. But as you suggest, uh I've been a storyteller, not the least of the reasons being because I think stories are sticky, by which I mean we remember the story. It's much more likely I'll remember the illustration, the story, the example, than the fancy schmancy essay or s or sermon without something to hang on to. Uh, and I learned that uh in a very, very precise way. I was teaching a group of uh 12-year-olds getting ready for the bar about mitzvah, and I had previously used the particular story that I was going to conclude the class with four years earlier at the end of a Yom Kippur morning sermon. I mean, you know, these were eight years old at the time. They had no business paying attention, listening, or whatever. I started to tell the story, and a whole bunch of raised their hands. Oh, I remember when you said that. That was absolutely stunning for me. Stunning. By the way, the story, um, which isn't in the book, but the story that led to the notion of writing a book of stories is about Rabbi Nathan and the gladiatorial combats of ancient Rome. The sages are deciding whether we should go to the gladiatorial combats or not. And of course they say we must stay away. And Rabbi Nathan, I think actually, for the first time in his entire time in the Talmud, opens his mouth to voice an opinion and he says, We must go. And so that what's what is your reasoning? When the crowd shouts for the blood of the defeated gladiator, goes thumbs down, our job is to shout thumbs up. And what an exquisite notion of the job description for all our lives, because it's very easy to embrace despair or cynicism, etc. At any rate, I would be teaching 10th graders, not confirmation students, and I would you I invariably use stories to try to make the point. And that led to ultimately this little book, People Are Like Stories for Young Readers and Readers Who Wish to Say Young. Because I I'd love to imagine it's not just a children's book, although it's clearly able for young readers to read on their own. In fact, an eight-year-old who's the grandchild of a friend of mine, the grandfather gave her the book, asked her what'd she think, said, Oh, I read the whole thing. It was, now I'm quoting, the best book I ever read. For an eight-year-old, okay, thank you. But my hope, quite honestly, is that this book might generate cross-generation conversations. Because all of the stories try to emphasize compassion and empathy. And those are things in short supply and always needed.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

I think it's so beautiful. And I love the title, People Are Like, and we'll get into that. Stories for young readers and readers who wish to stay young. So clearly, it really is for all ages. And I love these comparisons that you make. You know, people are like, there's a chapter, people are like porcupines, people are like dogs, people are like redwood trees. What drew you to those comparisons and what made you want to play with metaphor for young readers and for readers who wish to stay young?

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Given that we are both part of a storytelling tradition that's baked into the 3,000-year journey that we call Judaism, Midrash, rabbinic commentaries, etc., I think it was automatic or absorbed through the process of becoming a rabbi and being intoxicated with text. But these stories grew out of images that made sense to me or turned upside down. In fact, the first story in the book is people are like porcupines. Some of the listeners may know the name Arthur Schopenhauer. He's the originator of the notion that people are like porcupines, except he saw that's the bottom line. We have quills, we have stuff that keeps us away, that prevents intimacy. We are, to use this fancy schmancy phrase translated from the German, solipsistic prisms. When I turned that story upside down and say, human beings are like porcupines in that we want the warmth, we want the connection, we want the intimacy, but unlike porcupines, we can remove the quills that keep us separate and apart. Uh, and a hug is a heck of a lot better than a quill. I suspect that every story in this book uh grew out of a remembrance of using it at one point from the pulpit and then elaborating it into the function it is now. Now, the last story in the book, I think it's called Harry the Hippo, uh, a hippopotamus who lives at a zoo. And that I first told that story in 1974. My first year in the rabbit, I know I don't look it, of course not, right? Um, but and it was the first family service I'd ever been to for Rosh Hoshana, and I was informed by my then senior, you have to give the sermon. So I somehow I invented the story of Harry the Hippo. It's essentially a uh Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer tale of a notion that everyone has a skill, a talent, even as we're all too often busy pointing fingers and saying, you know. To my mind, that's what makes the Redwood tree story so fantastic. You know, I mean you're closer to them than I am, even though you're in LA. Uh, and you know, if if Redwood trees are consulted with engineers, they could never grow as tall as they grow. Because their root network is too narrow, too shallow. But they didn't know to consult with engineers, they hold each other off. And boy, do I think that's a perfect expression of what we should be doing, holding each other off instead of putting the other down on the assumption that makes me bigger. It never works.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Well, and also the realization that if we grow a grove of redwood trees, you know, we really are we are holding each other up. So there's you know, there's a an enlightened self-interest amongst the redwood trees as well. But by the way, I'm a huge dog fan. Anybody who knows me knows that um I love dogs. And so your chapter about people are like dogs was particularly sweet for me. Tell me a little bit about Michael Zedek and dogs and and what dogs teach you about people and vice versa, perhaps.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Well, the the bottom line of the story about people are like dogs is you know, we're pursuing happiness, and and and the simple story that I did use in a sermon was a young pup and an older dog are in conversation, and the young pup says, I've discovered the secret of happiness is in my tail, but no matter how much I try to chase it, I can't catch it. And the older dog says, You're absolutely right. The secret of happiness is in your tail. But I've discovered if you leave it alone, it often follows after you. Which is to say, happiness is a dividend of connection and caring for others, not something you can pursue and then you catch it. At any rate, that's the the keet the keatsore, in brief. But dogs. We were the uh partners with an absolutely uh angelic golden retriever named Jake. Jake was abused, Jake we found at a shelter when he was maybe two plus or minus, maybe two or three years old. He was skin and bones. We later discovered he actually had a gun pellet next to his spine. If anything, and but the healing power of the love that we gave him, and oh my gosh, the unconditional love he gave us. You know, I'm reminded of the old bromide. God created dogs so that we know we were created in God's image, and God created cats so we know we're not God. There's something awesome about dogs. In fact, earlier today, I was uh speaking to a bunch of preschool kids, and they wanted to hear the story. I read the story about dogs in the book, and one of the kids said, My dog just died. And we talked a little bit about that. In fact, I I had a member of my old congregation when I lived in Chicago who was a vet who would make house calls when the time came. And the family consisted of a husband, a wife, father, mother, a five-year-old boy, and a 12-year-old Labrador retriever, and it was time. The adults are talking about how are we going to explain what's going to happen. And with the usual mischievousness of a child who knows when adults are talking in a way that they're not supposed to be paying attention, he was overhearing. And the mother said, It's so sad that dogs don't live a long time. And the little boy tripped and said, I know why dogs don't live a long time. And of course they said, Well, what why is that? So, our whole purpose here is to learn how to love. Dogs already know how to do that, they don't have to live a long time. And there's something that resonates in my heart, even if it's not articulated beyond that, about what we get from dogs. You know, the old bromide, I I'd love to become the person my dog thinks I am. I'm I I think that's a prod there to uh something. Even as I'm a cat lover too. When my wife and I got married, she had a cat, I had a dog, and uh it was a little challenging at first, but they ended up being best friends.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yeah, I'm thinking about the title, and it's so beautifully chosen stories for young readers and readers who wish to stay young. And in some ways, you know, it feels to me like that invitation to grown-ups to say, hey, there's wisdom in these stories for you too. Don't think that because it's a children's book, there isn't something deep that you can learn. And I've always felt that way as a rabbi. When I tell stories, sometimes we'll have, you know, the first grade Shabbat service or the kindergarten Shabbat service. And sometimes afterwards, one of the regulars uh from the grown-up community will say, you know, Rabbi, it's it's cute to see all those kids, but you know, sometimes I miss when the kids are there, we don't have as a surgeon, a sermon that is as deep and doesn't feel like it gets at what you know we really wanted to get at. And once I said, well, let's just kind of take, if you have a minute, let's kind of unplack unpack the story that the clergy told today. And we spent some time with it, and they were like, Yeah, you're right. There's actually something really deep in that too. So, you know, a story about a porcupine and how people can be like porcupines, because sometimes our quills metaphorically that we carry can get in the way of getting close to others, is it's a really deep concept. It's obviously one that a kid can get their brain around, but it's also one that a grown-up can get their brain around. And the kid's comment about the dog that, you know, if the purpose of being a human being is learning how to love fully, then yeah, a dog doesn't really need much uh much time on earth to have mastered that and say, okay, I'm gonna go on to my next chapter, whatever that is, because I've I got that, you know. So those are those are not shallow or unimportant kinds of messages. So I just wanted to say that as a side note. But for you as a as an educator and as someone who likes to quote people like uh you know, philosophers, anti-Semitic or not, it doesn't matter. But uh, and I know from our our previous podcast we talked about this, you know, the a university teaching background was something that uh, or a career in teaching was something that you considered in in the higher education level. Tell me a little bit about the way you navigate that uh I don't think it's attention, but but sometimes a tension that some people feel between this is for kids, but actually it's for all human beings. Is there a particular way that you help open people up to that and that you have in your rabbinet? For me, it's it's it's one gestalt.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

It's it it's of a piece. It's how I remember, it's how I attempt to keep myself on course because there's certainly more than enough stuff to distract us or to get in the way. So what I recall in that context is one of the stories in the book, as you likely know, is you know, people are like God, we talk about chutzpah, outrageous. But that story developed out of a true story. I was walking out after a family service, and this absolutely gorgeous little girl, using her outdoor voice in the sanctuary, said, Mommy, the rabbi confused me. I mean, I immediately paid attention. Oh my god, I bet the mommy's gonna say, honey, he confuses everyone. There's no big deal there, right? Instead, the mommy said, Why is that? Which was a more promising beginning. And the little girl said, Mommy, the rabbi said God is bigger than us. She should have said God is bigger than we are, but she said than us. And the mommy said, That's right, honey, God is bigger than us. And wherever anybody who might be listening to this is on about the God idea, universe is clearly bigger than we are. And the mommy said, God is bigger than us. But mommy, the rabbi said there's a part of God in every one of us. Is that true, mommy? And one of the unbelievably magnificent, chutzbedik, amazing statements about a from our tradition is that every human being is of infinite value, precious, image of God, right? And the mommy said, That's right, honey, it's a part of God and us. And then this little girl said, and I quote, Mommy, if God is bigger than us and God lives in us, wouldn't God show through? That's the most brilliant theological statement I've heard so far in my 79 years. We've known people like that. Yoshi, you're a person like that. And I don't mean anything other than an honest observation, not a compliment. The word is enthusiasm. It comes from the Greek enthusiasmos, to be full of God. By the way, I love the Hebrew word, hitla ofot, to be on fire, right? That others may be warmed, may be connected, may even start a spontaneous combustion because of who and what we are and what we bring to it. But that all of that is leading to the the simple statement that I think in stories. I can't help it. You know, it helps me, and I will make the leap to assume it might help somebody else. And by the way, as long as we're talking about helping, all the proceeds go for scholarships for needy kids. And that makes me very proud. Buy many copies, please, please, please.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

It's a great gift for Hanukkah or Pura for a birthday. So I want to talk about Sam, Julia, Max, and Ray, who I think are your grandkids because you dedicate the book to them and to their parents. And at the beginning, I said, you know, I think I know why you decided to write a kid's book because of these grandchildren, but I'd love to hear, in terms of your own rabbinic journey and the way things in life touch us and shape us and change us, how has becoming a grandparent changed you as a rabbi?

SPEAKER_01 16:23

I would love to imagine that it made an even greater clarity in my life about the necessity of values and sharing values, the wonder of just being unconditionally connected without the need to get something from someone or to be taking from someone something that I need. I just think it's maybe more human and humane. The experience of becoming friends with my children, not just that they were my children, but friends with them, and then to watch their evolution as parents, and to have the extra joy of I get to do this too, with this new generation of young people to connect with and grow with and rejoice with. Wow. That may be peculiar in some ways and resonant in others. I'm an only child. So I didn't want my daughter to be an only child. That's why we have two daughters and now grandchildren.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

My gosh. I'm not at that life stage yet, but someday, God willing. But I I do get to witness it a lot. And I'm sure you remember before you became a grandfather, you saw a lot of people become a grandfather or a grandmother. And sometimes I see congregants who it doesn't seem like it has had from the outside at least, you know, some some profound change. But other times I see people and it they're just they become different people in reaching that moment in their lives. I want to ask you about, we've already touched on this, you've already touched on this in terms of the theology that comes through in the book and that comment that young person said to you, you know, if if if we have God inside of us and God is infinite, they they she didn't use the Hebrew word, but in Jewish theological language, there's this concept of shefa, of sort of overflow. And so you can't contain something that's infinite. By definition, it can't be contained. So if there's a little infinite inside of you, it must be gushing over and overflowing constantly. And I love that image. It's a beautiful theological understanding. What are some of the other theological moments of the book that were delightful for you to kind of weave into a seemingly and subversively simple kid story? But really, what it is, is a very deep theology that is embedded in it.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

For me, the overwhelming theological tendency of this book is about the human even more than it's about uh God. I am convinced that there's no such thing as secular humanism. It's sacred humanism. Judaism, from my perspective, argues what we do to each other brings the sacred godness into the world, or drives the sacred godness out of the world. And we're pretty good at the driving God out. Our book is one little footnote of some ways to bring some more of the sacred in, into the experience. There is no place where God is not, and where God is all is well. I don't think that means everything's hunky-dory, but there's no place where the sacred isn't at least accessible if we would connect with each other. I think that's Judaism 101.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Joel Grisshaver, the great Jewish educator, once taught me that a myth is a truth embedded in a story or wrapped in a story, which isn't exactly what we were talking about, but I was thinking about that. You know, that in each of these stories there are eternal truths and and profound thoughts that you have wrapped the story around. And of course, our Jewish tradition, story after story, is exactly that, whether they happened literally or not, they are truths wrapped in this narrative, wrapped in this story. So I was just writing something actually for this week's Parashawi, as we're recording this, it's the very end of the book of Exodus, and I came across an article by our teacher and colleague, Rabbi Dr. Rachel Adler, about the menorah, and it's described in these last chapters of Exodus. And it looks like an almond tree. And and then you light it on fire. And it's an insight I never thought about that the menorah is a little bit of a reflection of the burning bush. And so in this almond tree that we light on fire, isn't there a little bit of a hint from the first story about awareness and about God being in everything, in every place, even in this humble bush? But are you going to pause long enough to notice it and to see, oh wow, there it is, a little bit of that divine energy. So I'm just thinking about all those things when we think about stories and the truths embedded in them. And whether it's a story that feels like a kid's story, you know, this is a story about a dog wagging its tail, okay, that feels that lives in the genre of a kid's story. Or whether it's a story that feels like, oh, this is a story from our Torah about something divine, the story of Moses and the burning bush, it's still a mechanism, it's a way to teach something big and something profound, often about the world right there. So I really appreciate it. But here's the question I have for you. You're 79 years old, and your recall is quite extraordinary. Your energy seems to be boundless. The speed at which you like to talk, I had to slow you down. I said, look, Brooklyn, this is Southern California. Just slow it down a but a beat. Has anyone ever said you're a superager? Do you think that is the case? If so, what is your secret? I want the elixir of life from Rabbi Michael Zeddeck.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

I am very much aware of the things that don't come the way they used to. So but I remember vividly two things. One is a lecture I heard many years ago called The Advantages of Aging, in which the presenter suggested that aging does in fact convey wisdom, that all those synapses there can lead to higher reflections of connecting one idea with another. I'd love to think that's true. But the other reality, a number of years ago, while I was in Chicago, right before Yom Kippur, I got a phone call from the cheap eats editor of the Chicago Tribune. He doesn't, he doesn't, there's no such position anymore. There's hardly a Chicago Tribune anymore. And he said, Rabbi, uh, we're want to do an article on the search for the closest approximation of a New York City style bagel here. And the religion editor says, You're the person I have to see. Okay, I thought it'd be good publicity for the congregation, I agreed. First place we went was in the suburbs, a place called Once Upon a Bagel. If you've got a name like that, it's surely not going to be very good, right? But but I thought I came up with my best line, which was if you got to toast it in order to taste it, it's not a New York City style bagel. Instead, he wrote the following. This is so many years ago. Zedek is 65, looks 45, and acts 15. I thought that was so exquisite. I know my kids love it because my whole job was to embarrass them in life. But a blink of the eye ago, I was in kindergarten, and it still feels there's a part of me that's still that child. And I love that whole person with all the stuff that's in here and in here, and I'm reminded of the Dalai Lama was once asked by a visitor with all the pain and suffering that your people and you have gone through, how do you maintain this joy? His response was, what else would you suggest? Whatever number of years will be my portion, I'm grateful. And if that's a key, I offer it for anybody and everybody to embrace it, no charge.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

I think I I have an idea of what it is, but we talked about some of the theological underpinnings of the book. What's the big idea that you want every reader to take away from the book, you know, when when they've had an opportunity to share it with their child or their grandchild, people are like, what's the big takeaway?

SPEAKER_01 25:01

None of us is ever done growing. We're all human becomings. Let's become more. There's a Hasidic story of a rabbi who says, you know, I can put up the ladder, but only the congregate will determine how high they'll climb. Let's keep climbing higher. In Lola Malamiza, if not higher.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

I love it. Thank you so much, Rabbi Michael Zedek. I'm I'm grateful to you for this new book, and I'm grateful to you for your time and your friendship and continuing to be a teacher. And what's been fun for me is we really reconnected just in the last couple of years, although you were uh an important part of my childhood uh when I was growing up in Omaha and we would come to Kansas City, and I spent so many Friday nights and Shabbat mornings and holidays in your congregation at Bene Yehuda and just got to be inspired by you. So, everybody listening, make sure you get a copy of People Are Like Stories for Young Readers and Readers Who Wish to Stay Young. And we will put in the episode notes exactly where you can go to get it from the publisher. All of the proceeds are going to go to support scholarships for young people. So thank you, Rabbi Zedek, for the book and for adding that mitzvah layer to it so that when people purchase it, they know they're they're doing a good thing too.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Thank you so much, Yoshi. It's wonderful to see you. It's wonderful to be with you, and I'm grateful for this, but even more for all you do and for that amazing instrument that's the congregation you serve with so many others so well.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Well, that's our episode. Thanks for listening to Search for Meaning. If you enjoyed today's conversation, please like, subscribe, and leave a review. It really helps others discover the podcast. And consider sharing Search for Meaning with a friend. They might appreciate the insights and inspiration found here. Special thanks to our producer Amy Shelby, our editor Josh Sterling, and our production coordinator Raz Husseini. Our theme song was composed by Maestro David Cates and myself, produced by Kenley Mattis, and features a vocal by cantor Josh Goldberg. Stay healthy, stay hopeful, and stay tuned.