Search for Meaning with Rabbi Yoshi
Join Rabbi Yoshi Zweiback as he talks with an eclectic variety of thinkers, artists, and change-makers about their experiences (Jewish or otherwise) and their own search for meaning and purpose in their lives.
Search for Meaning with Rabbi Yoshi
Search for Meaning with Rob Kutner
How do we find laughter when everything feels too heavy? What role does humor play when we're facing unimaginable challenges? Emmy, Peabody, and Grammy-winning comedy writer Rob Kutner offers surprising wisdom on these questions through the lens of Jewish history and his own creative journey.
"I can't solve those problems, nor should I try to, but at least I can give people's brains a break so that they'll have the strength to come back to the problems and solve them or be engaged in them," Kutner reflects. This perspective frames comedy not as escape but as essential mental restoration—something the Jewish people have relied on throughout their 5,000-year history.
Kutner's book "The Jews: 5,000 Years and Counting" blends sharp wit with deep historical research, creating an accessible entry point to Jewish history that honors both its complexity and its resilience. We explore how his own Jewish identity was paradoxically strengthened by attending a Christian school in Atlanta, which prompted him to ask fundamental questions about who he was and what he believed.
Our conversation takes a profound turn when discussing the current moment of heightened antisemitism and global conflict. Writing during and after October 7th, 2023, Kutner experienced a creative paralysis that forced him to reconsider his approach to Jewish history. What emerged was a deeper appreciation for the Jewish tradition of holding multiple truths simultaneously—acknowledging both suffering and resilience, recognizing both grief and joy.
Perhaps most fascinating is Kutner's creative approach to biblical stories, reimagining characters like Abraham, Sarah, and Moses in modern contexts like group therapy sessions or personal diaries. These exercises in empathy allow readers to connect with ancient stories in fresh, meaningful ways while honoring the tradition's inherent complexity.
Whether you're seeking perspective during difficult times or simply curious about how comedy can illuminate profound truths, this conversation offers both comfort and challenge—reminding us that sometimes, the most serious thing we can do is laugh.
Learn more at https://www.robkutner.com/.
I can't solve those problems, nor should I try to, but at least I can give people's brains a break so that they'll have the strength to come back to the problems and solve them or be engaged in them. My role is to be with people and give them some comfort through a laugh.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Search for Meaning. I'm Yoshi Zweibach. Thanks for joining me. Today's conversation is one I've actually been looking forward to for a long time, because it's with someone whose work has been making me laugh and making me think for decades. Rob Kuttner and I actually overlapped back in college he was a freshman when I was a senior and I've been a fan of his quick wit, his brilliant comedic timing and his ability to find meaning in the absurd ever since.
Speaker 2:Rob is an Emmy, peabody, grammy and Television Critics Association award-winning comedy writer whose career has been extraordinary, taking him from the Daily Show to Conan, from Teen Titans Go to Ben 10, and even to Angry Birds, summer Madness. His writing blends sharp satire with deep awareness of the human condition, and his new book, the Jews 5,000 Years and Counting, is a wildly entertaining, deeply researched and wonderfully irreverent journey through Jewish history. But make no mistake, there is a lot of very good Jewish history in this book that you can learn from. You know, I think humor is one of the great gifts we can bring to stories that are both personal and communal, and collective can bring to stories that are both personal and communal, and collective. And as Jews, my goodness, so much I think of how we've survived the many challenges that we've confronted throughout our history, the way we've processed grief and trauma and the way, of course, we've celebrated joy is through humor, and it's not just about getting a laugh. It's often about a different perspective. It's about shining a light into the shadows, making space in our lives for resilience, and also sometimes it's a way to tell the truth more clearly than any more serious or solemn speech ever could.
Speaker 2:In this episode, rob and I talk about how to find the funny in the profound and the careful balance between irreverence and reverence and, ultimately, why telling our story with humor is not only possible but essential. Stay tuned and be inspired. I'm so grateful to you, rob, for joining me today, and I'm really enjoying the book the Jews, which I think what a name for a book and also just getting a chance to know you. We overlapped a little bit in college, but I've had a chance to follow your career over the years with writing on the Daily Show and Conan and so many other things and multiple Emmy, peabody, grammy awards Wow. But here you are writing this book about the Jews and I'd love to, just before I, dig back a little bit into your own growing up and your Jewish heritage and identity. Tell me about the formation of this or the idea behind this book. The Jews 5,000 Years and Counting what inspired you to write this?
Speaker 1:Well, we'll probably touch on this a little bit later, but I've been pretty out loud and proud about my Judaism and this has come across on social media, especially on Facebook. And this is kind of a matchmaker story because I have a friend named Judy Tashbuk-Saffron who's a book publicist and we're friends and she's been a follower of me on social media and all that. And she knew the people at Wicked Sun Press, which is a newish, jewish imprint in the Simon Schuster empire, and they thought Jewish history book being told funny would be a good idea and a good seller. Judy thought I was the person for it because of my community background and my Jewish knowledge and she introduced us and as soon as I heard the idea I was instantly smitten. I instantly saw the value as well. So off to the races.
Speaker 2:Well, it's an ambitious goal to tell the story of the Jewish people in a way that's engaging and accessible, and it's not so easy just to think about it and imagine it, but you do it in a way that is really beautiful and indeed engaging, funny and also lots and lots of good historical facts. In a world where those things don't seem to matter, sometimes it's nice to be reading it and nodding my head and saying, wow, this is what a great resource for an intro to Judaism class, for a middle or high school history class. What are some of the ways that you're hearing about people using it? I know the book came out this spring. Are you hearing stories about people using it in those kinds of settings?
Speaker 1:I've been pursuing that.
Speaker 1:I went to the Jewish Educators Conference, which is the conservative movements like Jewish Education Consortium in Chicago, and sold all my copies and got a lot of business cards and stuff like that, and there's a school here that's interested in using it as part of their middle school curriculum. There's one in Atlanta, where I'm from, that's going to have me do a presentation on that. So I think we're still figuring that out. What I think is one of the strengths of it but also the challenges is that it is irreverent, which personally I have a sort of child at heart mentality, and I think taking on that approach is what gets kids to like it, because it feels a little rebellious and at the same time that is challenging for an institution to fully embrace, because they're like we like this part, but this part we're not so sure about. So I think it's still an exploration that's going on, but I'm hoping that, like you, that it is a book that can be in pieces. Maybe, I think maybe just certain sections can be used as springboards for curriculum experiences in the classroom.
Speaker 2:Well, as you were saying that, I was thinking of all of the irreverence in the tradition itself, some of which comes out in your book, like you acknowledge that, but the fact that we have a tradition where our ancestors in the wilderness are saying things like you know what there weren't enough graves in Egypt.
Speaker 1:You had to schlep us out to the wilderness, to kill us.
Speaker 2:That is an irreverent people and our ancestors are saying that to Moses. You know, it's not like they're talking back to Mrs Schwartz in their fifth grade Hebrew school class, it's like you're speaking to Moses. So if that's not baked into our tradition sufficiently, my goodness. So I think there should be room for that. But obviously I do understand a parent picking that up and saying, hey, wait a second. Who decided that the comedy writer from the Daily Show should be teaching my kid Jewish history? But I want to go back in time a little bit to the Atlanta upbringing. Tell me a little bit about your own Jewish identity, because obviously it's a really important part of who you are and who you have become and your family, et cetera. Tell us a little bit about your Jewish background.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have an appropriate life. I don't know if I have a funny story about that, which is that my Jewish background is largely a factor of going to a Christian school. So, parents, if you're looking for Jewish continuity, there's your panacea right there. So I went to this fairly conservative Christian prep school excellent school, classical education, all that stuff but Christian Presbyterian in Atlanta called Westminster Schools from K through 12. You know what and my family was, I would say, was sort of more loosely affiliated with Judaism at that point we were not particularly observance.
Speaker 1:My parents developed an early interest in Israel. My dad was a great humanitarian in the medical field and started doing a lot of work with Israel and using Israel as a base for the country. So we were traveling to Israel a lot for my dad's work, but we weren't particularly connected to Jewish things in the day-to-day sense. And then, when I got into high school, this was at a moment when I think the sort of evangelical movement was roaring back to life and I started getting questioned a lot about like have you accepted Jesus? And if not, why not? And I didn't have a good answer.
Speaker 1:So I started. I wanted to know like who am I? So I started researching Jewish history and texts and stuff and it really spoke to me, it inspired me and I started deepening my Jewish connection. I got us to keep keeping kosher. We went to Shulmore, we started keeping Shabbat, sort of in a conservative way, and then I went to high school in Israel, the Alexander Abbas High School in Israel program, which is excellent and, honestly, like I still remember stuff which was a lot of that was the framework of this book things I learned. I don't remember anything from high school or, frankly, college, but I remember stuff I learned there because it's on the ground, learning on the sites where things happened. And then after college I studied at the Pardes Institute, which is a fantastic center of learning in Jerusalem as well. But really that journey began with rebelling against my environments, which prompted me to discover who I was.
Speaker 2:It's such a beautiful story and I'm so many pieces of it I have a connection to, although we didn't overlap at the exact same time. I already mentioned the university overlap, but Pardes, Alexander Musk two places I didn't attend, but I was living in Israel at various times over a period of about five years where I worked professionally with both places, working with some of the students, and the current director of Pardes is a dear friend and I have heard so many great things about the experiences people have had in both of those places. What year were you at?
Speaker 1:Pardes. It was like 94 to 95. All right.
Speaker 2:So I was let's see 92 to 93. Okay, so I was in Israel 93, 94, and came back in the summer of 94, so I must have missed you when you came and spent that time at Pardes. In terms of your own identity, how did this book shape it? Because obviously a lot of the things that you touched on I'm sure are things that you've learned over the years, whether it was, there's a whole section of the book that takes you through biblical history and some of the key biblical stories and things like that. So I imagine that in your studies at the Pardes Institute some of those are texts that you came across. But obviously now you're actually devoting yourself to writing a full-length book about Jewish history that has a lot of humor in it but also a lot of fact and knowledge around Jewish history. What was the process of writing the book like in terms of your own continuing Jewish education and knowledge?
Speaker 1:That's interesting because the small answer is that at Pardes you study like the classic texts and all that stuff and I got really grounding that and that's largely a topic that I did not touch on that much in the book because it was a history book and I feel like that's a whole different subject. I mentioned the historical context around the writings and I, you know, I have these rabbi action cards which kind of summarize the major rabbis as if they were like Pokemon characters, so that did not play into it. I think what played into my Jewish identity at this point was basically like what it's like being a Jew in the world today. And it's interesting because I was hired to write this before October 7th 2023, and continued writing it during it and obviously there's been a sea change or an awakening. The facile part of me was starting to write the book in a way like all these terrible things happen, but in the end we got to the Golden Medina, we got to Israel, we got to the United States and things settled down and now maybe the worst is sort of behind us and then hold that thought. Jewish history is back on again.
Speaker 1:Basically, I became very aware of and so some of the humor at first was had that kind of a bit of complacency to it and then I was really thrown off the track creatively back to over seventh, like I froze up for a whole month and I'm someone who worked in late night, so, like you, can't ever afford to have writer's block and I don't get writer's block because I've trained it out of my system but I didn't know what to say about Jewish history anymore for a while and I was just in a stasis.
Speaker 1:And when I came back to it, what I realized and what I think is the larger project of the book, and for me personally, is when you step back and look at the big picture.
Speaker 1:We have endured so much that, frankly speaking, as fraught as our current moment is on all different levels, so much worse really existentially and physically, as the Jewish people got through it, through a combination of our various enduring traits, and that really has buoyed me. And I think that perspective is one that's lacking, because we're in a very much in a news cycle, social media driven environment where everything keeps happening all the time. We feel stuck in this moment, this particular political moment feels particularly stuck, like we don't ever know what's going to end or how, and stepping back and taking a larger picture is actually, I think, pretty heartening and inspiring about like we have all kinds of questions about being Jewish right now and on all sides, but what I tried to imbue in it was all the positive aspects and the strengths that we have that have kept us going and that we should cling on to now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so often about that. You know how do we balance that. You know, on the one hand, let's not be Pollyannish about the moment that we're in. This is the worst anti-Semitism I've ever experienced in my entire life I imagine for you as well.
Speaker 2:And there are things that we're thinking about, both as individual Jews, probably, but certainly as parents, that my goodness, I didn't think, that I would think that my youngest daughter is a rising senior at Barnard and the JTS program and the type of hatred and anti-Semitism that she's experienced personally and witnessed is beyond anything I would have imagined.
Speaker 2:And certainly, had you told me that 10 years ago, your daughter's going to go to school in the Upper West Side of Manhattan and there are going to be moments where she feels unsafe physically and also emotionally, spiritually, I'd be like I just I don't see that happening. So, on the one hand, not to be Pollyannish about the moment that we're actually in, and, on the other hand, let's also have a little perspective here and realize that when we think about the 5,000 year history of the Jewish people, we've had significantly worse moments than this one and somehow we got through it. It reminds me just because I've been getting updates in my social media about the Spinal Tap movie part two that's coming out and I don't know if you grew up on that movie but I sure did.
Speaker 1:I could recite almost every line of it, probably yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm thinking of the moment when they're at the grave of Elvis Presley. It says too much. I won't say the bad word, rob Perspective, because sometimes that's the case. All you have to do is think about our history and it's too much perspective. It's like whoa, too much. So how are you now 660, some days into this war? How are you managing that balance between having that perspective on the one hand, and also moments where you're silenced? I can't write a word. I can't say a word because it's so heavy.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't think I have a stable point in this because I think my opinions range across the political spectrum, depending on who you're asking. I didn't see the whole thing in a little bit like quantum physics where, like, all these things are simultaneously true at the same time and it's very confusing because it feels like everybody else seems very confident about their chosen path, so that I find that very disorienting. That said, I don't engage in any kind of like argumentation with people online. I would only have personal discussions because I think that becomes a waste of time. Maybe that's coming from that perspective is like I'm holding fast to my own anchor of like understanding that this is all history and this shall pass issues than that. So that keeps me from engaging in the stuff.
Speaker 1:The way that I see a lot of people doing no shade on that. I'm just saying for me personally, but it's hard, it's not like it gives me like a tonic where I'm like oh, I see, it's fine, it's going to be fine. Like I still feel fear and the anxiety and the confusion every day. But maybe there's just a part of me that can manage it because I have the lodestone of looking at everything I looked at and keeping that in my head. It may be more like a cognitive behavioral therapy exercise that just bringing myself back to that thing to keep myself grounded in the middle of all this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you were talking about quantum mechanics and I don't know. I don't. I'm not a physics major, I know you weren't either, but you know, is it the idea that the particle can be here and here at the same time and not here at the same time, or whatever? All of those, the reality of it all, and the notion of not even the multiverse, but just multiple realities existing at the same moment?
Speaker 1:Yes, that's true, and it changed how you're observing it, how and where you're observing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's true too. I'm thinking about, as we're recording this, it's late July 2025. And I'm thinking about, like, the unfolding humanitarian crisis in Gaza. That is real. And, even though not everything that you see is accurate, the fact that there is profound human suffering happening, that that is true, that is real. And the fact that none of it would have been happening were not for Hamas, that's also true. And the fact that the Israeli government and the IDF bear a certain degree of responsibility because of the war, like that's also true. And you're like, all of these things are true at the same time.
Speaker 2:And the fact that we're exhausted and we can't believe that no one in the world seems to feel our pain. Like that is also true and we're expected to see someone else's. That's true too. Like how is one human being supposed to hold all of this in their brain without just exploding?
Speaker 1:That's the whole point. And like there's the famous thing that I love from the Roof where Tabi is, like on the one hand, the other hand like we need 19 hands just to accommodate every day's piece of information.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that is, in some ways, the beauty, the burden. The genius of the Jew is that, and this morning I was studying Talmud. Every Wednesday morning I have a group of people I study Talmud with on Zoom, and I've been studying with them for a couple of decades now. It's really fun, and each week to come back to that and say, okay, well, rabbi Yossi says this, rabbi Yochanan says this, and then we're going to get another voice. It's not just going to be the two of them and then another voice, and that is our genius, but it is also our burden, because to see the world in such a nuanced way is exhausting and it makes certainty impossible, even though that is actually from my perspective. Yes, that's actually how the world is. So isn't it better to see the world as it actually is? But wouldn't it be comforting to just see the world in a more binary way, just like this good, this bad, and be done with it?
Speaker 1:I just think humans find comfort in a narrative rather than an argument is unsettling by its nature and, to our credit, like you say, the Talmud is 95% unanswered questions. It's a conversation that never ends, but instead the human brain is wired to accept a storyline with heroes and villains and a very something to simplify all the chaos, and it's not able to be simplified.
Speaker 2:And all the more so in a moment where no one's expected to do those deep dives.
Speaker 1:instead, I want a TikTok-length description of this thing Short-term yes, and then it's like, rob, you wrote a 200-page book which already is incredibly ambitious.
Speaker 2:To take thousands of years of Jewish history and reduce it to just a few hundred pages right, but that's already an investment. You want me to sit down and actually read a book, and so we are living in a moment that, I think, makes all of that harder. One of the things I really appreciate about the book is the way you take on the perspective of so many different biblical characters and historical figures, and I'm thinking about the serpent in the Adam and Eve story. Thinking about that moment, or when you think about the matriarchs and the patriarchs and you imagine them in therapy, you know it's like you're getting inside their experience, which is a deeply Midrashic approach. Tell me a little bit about that process for you as a writer and again thinking about your own Jewish identity and the way you see these figures. What was it like to try to get inside their heads, as it were, including Moses?
Speaker 1:There's so many layers to that question so I'll give you the most boring answer. First, was that, like putting the matrix and patriarchs in group. Therapy was designed to just basically solve a book problem, which is like how can you tell all these stories that are so long and so deep and fit that into a book that has to cover the entire sweep? So I was remembering you know, rashi says it was in Muktam. There's no chronology in the Torah I was imagining like I can take that conceit that like what if we could just imagine them all in the same space at the same time? But also they have all this unresolved baggage right With each other that doesn't fully get addressed. So putting them all together into one space and letting them all express their point of views in one session, what's more Jewish than therapy?
Speaker 2:So it was kind of a literary. We invented therapy.
Speaker 1:We invented it exactly. So what's more Jewish than that? But for the journey that I was taking on it, one thing is that I've always appreciated, especially with the biblical characters, is that their flaws are presented along with their positive traits, which is not true of a lot of other faith traditions. There's no hagiography of our founding fathers, and I've always appreciated that.
Speaker 1:I think that keeps us all grounded in a time when, again, we try to simplify people, reduce people. It flattens people. We have to see them as complex. And then I think it also just comes from my professional background, honestly, because I've spent almost 20 years kind of imbibing the voices, inhabiting the voices of other people that I worked for, from Jon Stewart to Conan, to other people as well, and to me that was like a function, an outgrowth of a skill I learned on the job. But also it speaks to the overall project of how do we make these distant, far away, probably non-historical figures relevant is to put them into a modern vernacular, like to think about them the way I would think about their situations and try to share that with people so they don't seem remote. They seem like relatable people, struggling just like we are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's beautiful to find ways to relate. I was looking at the chapter where Moses is writing in his diary and what a beautiful exercise. It'd be a wonderful thing to do in a text study course to ask participants okay, I want you to imagine Moses on the journey in the wilderness towards the promised land and the assignment is to write a diary entry after the people are complaining about the mana or whatever it is. And it's a great technique because it allows you to get inside of that person and imagine what it would be like for a moment to be them, and it's a great opportunity for empathy to think about. What would that be like? Abraham being asked to do the unthinkable? Okay, so imagine that conversation. Or Abraham trying to work that out in therapy, family therapy, abraham Isaac and Sarah trying to make sense of it all.
Speaker 2:You mentioned some of the writing that you've done over the years in the comedy world, thinking about the moment that we're in right now, which is politically fraught in ways that perhaps we've never seen before no-transcript, inherently fraught, and you know some of your viewers or listeners are going to get really upset, no matter what kind of take you have, especially maybe thinking back to your work with Jon Stewart on the Daily Show. How did you try to navigate those kinds of things and touch on the issues of the day but have a sensitivity to what the political repercussions might be?
Speaker 1:The short answer is I don't really. I really don't. I don't address that in a public facing comedy way, because I think there's a couple of problems. One is that the audiences are so segmented and I, as I was saying earlier, I don't necessarily agree with there's two sides. I think there's multiple sides really, but like there's sort of two main sides. I reject those categories and if you don't know what your audience is, you can't really do comedy. I think that's the problem. And even if you try to with an echo chamber, I feel like that feels like a hollow exercise. So I honestly segment the two sides of my life.
Speaker 1:Segment the two sides of my life and I would say more is that I use comedy about other things as a way to let the diffuse tension for myself and the people who are struggling with it. For example, I'm on a bunch of WhatsApp chats have emerged after October 7th, some in my professional groupings and stuff like that, and we're all kind of like fretting about these things and what I'll try to do is just bring in comedy about other things to like when the room's getting very tense, because I want to like just help people psychologically make it through the tension of all this stuff rather than addressing it On the Daily Show. What we did when there was difficult issues was oh, okay, so that actually the bridging concept is I also I'm afraid of, like comedy, being glib about the loss of human life and human suffering, which is unfortunately basically a part of these stories, so I don't feel there's a lot of comic material. What we did on the Daily show when there were difficult situations and tragedies was we would go after usually the media's sensationalistic framing and simplification of these things and politicization of issues. But I find even that to be such a mess nowadays.
Speaker 1:The shifting media and again, the different types of media ecosystems, the ecosystems that we're in. I don't know where to land on that stuff and so I don't try it because I don't think it's my place to do it and the people who are doing it. I think you're either doing a disservice by dehumanizing one sort of people or another.
Speaker 1:The one example where I tried to take it on was I created a meme when this kind of started, where it's a Rubik's cube and I've just found a stock photo. It's a Rubik's cube and two sides of it are fully solved, like red one from Scrappy Green. The rest of it's still mixed, and the meme was hey guys, I just solved the Middle East, which to me represented the problem, which is that everybody thinks they have a simple solution. In fact, there's so many sides to it, but you can only tell that joke so many times, and so I don't like to repeat myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of the things that makes it so challenging for me as a not a comedy writer, but someone who appreciates comedy writers and I enjoy watching those shows is that the host and I'll use the example of Jon Stewart will make comments or do a piece or have a take that all of a sudden, as someone who's been a fan, I'm like whoa, what just happened? And maybe it's an attempt to oversimplify, or maybe it's just a fan. I'm like whoa, what just happened? And maybe it's, you know, an attempt to oversimplify, or maybe it's just a take I don't like. But suddenly this person who had delighted me and entertained me and I really enjoyed that time with that person suddenly I'm like I don't know if I want to listen to you anymore. You know, I don't know if you are someone who can entertain me in the way that you used to be able to entertain me, and I'm sure that that is something that a lot of writers and producers and on-screen personalities think about, right? You know?
Speaker 2:And here we are having this conversation just a few weeks after Stephen Colbert's show was canceled. For whatever reasons the show was canceled, but it seems like some of it had to do with his political leanings right. So you know how do you manage that and also acknowledge that we are living in a time when people will crave relevance. How can you never touch those things? Or how can you never address some of those issues that we're carrying? But you know that if you address them, there are going to be some people who are like what, what? That's not what I came here for. I wonder what you think the role of in a moment like that? Is comedy's role more to distract? Is it? Do you ever see yourself as a comedy writer that the role is to tackle head on and make us think about a situation differently, or is that now a different role of yours, just as a thinker?
Speaker 1:I think in general, that is definitely a challenge that I embrace and enjoy. For example, like a few years ago, my friend and I made a comedy sketch show which aired on the TV channel, called Gander, where we took on a lot of like topics like we, for example, unveiled, like how food delivery apps are pretty exploitative of mom and pop restaurants and the customers, stuff like that. And honestly, it's an interesting choice because I think John Oliver does a great job with this on a lot of topics, like really using comedy to expose things and inform people in the way that I try to do with the book, and I feel like I love John. I worked with him before and I think in this topic and Stuart, I think as well have taken a kind of simplistic approach to a more complex topic in a way they don't with other topics because of the narrative. So I think in this particular topic I don't know if there's a good way to get purchased on it.
Speaker 1:However, my general approach to like the Middle East situation now is that it's kind of a yes, and it's ironically coming from the world of improv comedy, but I think it's entirely possible. Just like we were saying earlier, you can say all the things that you're mad about and just say the other ones that are bad also, instead of just omitting one of them from the picture. I feel like a lot of people have decided to just sort of omit one set of bad actors, for example, or one set of legitimate claims from the story and just make the story only about one team, like we're saying, and I think it's fairly easy to to have a sense of category and degree. You know, are these things in the same category?
Speaker 2:And if so, we can lump them together. Or is it an issue of really degree, so like they're in the same category but they're very different degrees? So they're in the category of human suffering, but let's have a sense of scale and be thoughtful about that or maybe they're entirely different categories, right? So I think having the ability to make category distinctions and degree distinctions is a second layer of that, the first layer being what you just said Can we acknowledge multiple truths and then can we even do that next step. So, for example, when people make these comparisons to what's happening in Gaza right now, to the Holocaust, you have a category distinction problem, in my opinion, and then you also have a degree distinction problem that relates and it can lead to really problematic thinking.
Speaker 2:But you're right, why is it that some of these folks can't even acknowledge the multiple truth piece, especially since they do it in so many other areas? And that's where I often end up concluding that there is either a thoughtful anti-Semitism happening or maybe just a blind spot, if we want to give the person a benefit of the doubt and say, okay, they have a blind spot here, that they don't seem to have around race or that they don't seem to have around gender and sexuality issues, but they sure do here. How do you understand it? Is it fair to say that it's often antisemitism, or is there another explanation you have?
Speaker 1:I'm really nervous about throwing the term antisemitism around nowadays because it's both prevalent and also I think it gets misused as a kind of a cudgel in a very unhelpful way.
Speaker 1:So what I do like and I respond to it, I was going to use that exact terminology as blind spot, because I think if you look at like any almost any great creator, any great artistic voice of any kind, not even comedic, they always had blind spots historically, like some of them were just objectively terrible people or treated the family and the people around them badly, even if they made incredible breakthroughs for the human civilization.
Speaker 1:So that's the one taking that sort of big picture. Look, I'm looking at the people now as having certain blinders on, either by choice or just the shouting cultural conversation that we're all kind of wrapped up in right now, and I don't know if that makes it okay or not, but I think it's just an inevitability of human nature is to be really tuned in in certain ways and be really enlightened. And then just so many examples of people who made incredible progressive accomplishments were just not great on race, for example, or people in civil rights movement weren't great for women, and then you can go back to, just as I said, artists being like ruining their families. I just think people can be enlightened up to a certain degree, and then we just reach our limitations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that reality of how deeply flawed and complicated and nuanced human beings are you could be a great and loving father and also terrible at other kinds of things, and even truly wicked people probably have some redeeming qualities, right? So how do we remind ourselves of that? So even truly righteous, wonderful people might very well have a blind spot or some type of bias that they're just not aware of. At the end of the book, you have a quiz, an anti-Semitism quiz, and I won't give it away, but every one of them has the. There's one right answer to each one of these parts of the quiz, and I was just wondering, when you think about anti-Semitism and that piece in particular, like was that something you wrote after October 7th, after you'd already started the book? In particular, like was that something you wrote after October 7th, after you'd already started the book, or was that something that you'd already gotten to that place pre-October 7th, but post Pittsburgh 2018?
Speaker 1:I think I was probably going to do it at that point as well, and my editor was certainly pushing for it. I talked about anti-Semitism as a sort of historical development at one point, and he encouraged me to expand on that, so I thought I would expose the absurdity of it in the way that I did, which thank you for not spoiling. The one thing that I think I was particularly driven towards was it's right past that, but the catch-off. We have every generation of Jews going back to slavery talking about how they had it worse, which is actually modeled on a Monty Python sketch I don't know if you've seen it before men complaining about how it was worse for them in their day. It was harder for them in their day.
Speaker 1:In my day we didn't have so-and-so, and what I was really specifically aiming for with that one was this idea, I think that has come out in light of recent things about the Jews being privileged and, despite the sort of powerfulness of Israel and their relatively privileged condition in America, the fact that almost all of our history has really been privileged under someone else's boot heel, under some form of oppression, and recognizing that, as you were saying, like neither of us have experienced this in our lifetime, that we got this little sliver of American Jewish history, which is pretty positive for the past 50 years or so, and maybe it turns out to have been the exception after.
Speaker 1:I hope not, but it was certainly unusual, certainly an outlier in Jewish history, and so if you look at the whole framework, so I had this sort of like reveal going back through history, how Jews are always being treated badly, because in a way that explains why we're so adamant and angry and defensive. I think in a way now that doesn't make sense to a lot of people and maybe people on the inside that choose as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, again, it's back to thinking about perspective and the power and importance of maintaining that, on the one hand, and also being able to acknowledge how difficult and painful this moment is. Just because there have been more difficult and more painful moments doesn't mean that July 2025 is some sort of picnic for us. It's hard and we need to be able to acknowledge that, maintain that perspective and it's such a challenging thing and a balancing act. It's something I think about all the time as a rabbi Traditionally the role not just as teacher, but also to be there to comfort people when they're going through challenging times, and that can be accomplished in part by helping them maintain a sense of perspective. But you certainly don't want to tell someone who suffered a loss well, it could be worse.
Speaker 2:Think about people who lost their whole family in the Holocaust. Like no, that's not what this person needs to hear right now. They're really sad about their beloved uncle and that's real pain for them. So don't try to give them perspective. Just acknowledge their pain and allow them to experience that. I wanted to ask you to think about this process and this moment, when you think about the kinds of things that give you meaning and inspiration at such a time. I'm wondering if maybe there's something from the book that you go back to, something that you wrote in the process of preparing the book, that's like, yeah, that crystallizes, embodies, what gives Rob a sense of meaning and purpose. And the Hebrew word. You know, koach, it gives me a little bit of strength at a moment like this. What's something that you've discovered that really does that for you?
Speaker 1:I don't know if there's something specific in the book, because I think the whole process was a bit of a journey through that. At the very end I have this sort of pep talk by the Jewish People's Mother, which to me wraps up the whole feeling of like comfort and also consolation and feeling good about ourselves. So I think that was expressing that. Maybe it's just a fact of having kids who are teenagers, who are just going along with them, as you said, being with them in their struggles, like just really sticking with. That keeps me grounded, I think, in the midst of all these other things that are going on.
Speaker 1:I think that, as I was saying earlier, the compartmentalization that I do with comedy that's not related to current situations is something I try to share with other people as much as possible, whether it's in social media, in person.
Speaker 1:And just being able to give people some lightness to their minds when we're struggling with so much to me is, I think, a gift that I've been given and that I should share with other people. So I think that gives me a sense of at least I can do something. I can't solve those problems, nor should I try to, but at least I can give people's brains a break so that they'll have the strength to come back to the problems and solve them or be engaged in them, and that I think that applies to like the political situation as well. Like I'm certainly very fraught about things that go way beyond the Jewish world right now, they intersect in very strange and unpredictable ways, which also gives me anxiety. There's so much going on, there's so much to think about Politics, climate change, ai, just polarization, you name it and I think that my role is to sort of be with people and give them some comfort through a laugh.
Speaker 2:One of my favorite lines from the Simpsons is they do an episode I don't remember what season it's in, but there's an episode where they retell the Passover story, the Exodus story, and all the characters play different parts in the story and one of the characters leans over to Lisa Simpson, who I think plays Miriam in the episode, and the character says after the Jews make it to the other side of the Red Sea, it's pretty much smooth sailing for the Jews. And there's this great moment where Lisa's like and I just love that, but from now on it's pretty much smooth sailing, right, and you could do that at so many different places. It's like okay, we made it through this really tough spot, now it's smooth sailing right. Like World War II is over, that was horrible beyond description, but now we have our homeland, it's all going to be okay. Or we made it through the Six-Day War and we survived, and my goodness, it's endless how many times you could do that and it's all smooth sailing. So I was thinking about that, as you said.
Speaker 2:And then the dedication of your book I really appreciated To all the Jews who, if history is any guide, could probably use a laugh right now, and I love that. So if your job in part is to give us a chance to reflect a little bit on our history in a way that makes us smile or even laugh, that's not a small trivial act. That's actually a beautiful and empowering act. Book the Jews. I'd love you to maybe conclude our conversation by reading something from the book, a passage that you like to come back to, something that you think sums up a little bit of the voice of the book.
Speaker 1:Okay, great Thanks. So I think one I like to share a lot with the public is the opening piece of it, because I think it sets the tone of irreverence and kind of puts in motion, I think, some of the major themes of the book. So this is called Creation A Snake's Eye View. Hey there, salutations. Sorry, snake humor. That's right, I'm the snake from the original biblical tale in the book of Genesis. You know the wily, smooth-talking reptile who tempted Adam and Eve into violating God's very first instruction.
Speaker 1:And for my notorious role in history I have two words I'd like to say to all of humanity, past, present and future You're welcome, because without me none of the good stuff would have happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We all know the basic storyline. First there was nothing or technically void and waste. Then God got to work and started creating light, sky, land, sea, plants, bird, fish, insects, cosmological bodies and furry bodies. Then God created the first man, adam, and immediately, realizing the guy was just a bucket of need, created Eve, a female companion for him. It was history's first blind date, complete with God over-enthusiastically telling them you two have so much in common. Then God informed the pair that they could eat anything in the Garden of Eden. Except the fruit from one tree, the tree of knowledge of good and evil, humans wouldn't even be Jews for thousands of years, but we're already getting stuck with their first rule on what not to eat. More broadly, though, it was humanity's very first test of obedience to God, a critical pattern setter for the relationship between people and God for all times. Spoiler alert that pattern not good. But here's the thing. How do you truly test someone's obedience unless the temptation is strong? Now look, maybe fruit from a tree that grows the knowledge of good and evil sounds mouthwatering to you. But even non-figuratively, it was basically just an apple. According to some rabbis, maybe it was even a fig date or a stalk of wheat Even less delicious raw foods Worth defining the creator for? Probably not. So that's where I came in.
Speaker 1:I talked up that fruit to Eve, told her how delicious it was, suggested that the downside of disobeying God wasn't that bad. Admittedly, it's not that hard to deceive a naive being who was literally born yesterday. But I pulled out all the stops. I improvised a tragic backstory about how not eating this fruit killed my father. I lowered my voice and did a scary, gravelly voice, pretending to be God. I even got her to do a little light role-playing. Okay, this time I'll play the mouth. Why did I do it? If I'm being honest, living in a place of complete wall-to-wall perfection is boring as sin. I could tell that even before there was such a thing as sin. But more to the point from where I slither, the Jewish people have always placed a premium on the acquisition of knowledge, which is something to be proud of. Did you really want to go through history known primarily as the naked people who don't eat apples? So, essentially, I told Eve go on, have a cheat day. And it worked. Eve took a bite, shared the fruit with Adam and the deed was done.
Speaker 1:Humankind made a first, bold, adolescent step of independence from its parents. It was pretty much the only way they could act out in a time before there was cigarettes and there was really no way to sleep around. But it gets better Now. Armed with the knowledge of good and evil and the free will to choose between them, humanity entered a much deeper relationship with God. Now, instead of humans just being stuck in their leafy prison, they would be free to roam about the whole planet, and it would be up to God to provide people with moral and behavioral guidelines For the Jews. This took the form of the Ten Commandments, the Torah, the Mishnah, the Gemara and the millennia of scholarship that followed, aka the key branding elements of the Jewish experience.
Speaker 1:What about all the bad stuff that came next? God banished Adam and Eve from the garden, forced men to labor in the soil to grow their food, and made it so women would experience pains when giving birth. Now, come on, that's not on you, that's just God being bitter about human independence and the people who bring forth life. So I don't call it banishment, I call it the Snakes Guaranteed Employment for Farmhands and Obstetricians Act. So, in sum, because of me, there will one day arise a people famous for challenging authority, seeking knowledge, delving deeply into ethical dilemmas and often, as a result of knowing too much, repeatedly getting kicked out of where they're living. Not bad for a creature who can't even use chopsticks.
Speaker 2:Rob, thank you so much. It's a great book. It's a wonderful resource, I think, for anybody who wants to not just be entertained and be engaged and be delighted, but really learn more about their Jewish identity and Jewish history. Along the way Appreciate you taking the time today and I appreciate the book very much.
Speaker 1:Thanks, it's been great talking to you.
Speaker 2:Well, that's our episode. Thanks so much to Rob Kuttner for his humor, his warmth and for sharing such a thoughtful and hilarious conversation with our community. I recommend his book the Jews 5,000 Years and Counting. It's funny and it's filled with great info and history and insights about the Jewish people. If you enjoyed today's episode, please like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps others discover the podcast and consider sharing Search for Meaning with a friend. They might appreciate conversations like these as well. Special thanks to Josh Sterling for editing this episode with care and skill, to Amy Shelby for producing and to Raz Hussaini for his work as our production manager. Stay healthy, stay hopeful and stay tuned you.